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Can you still be incorrigibly self righteous?
FUCK YES to oat milk. I love oat milk. I also love cheese and haven’t really found a good substitute yet, but oat milk is the GOAT milk.
This also applies to renewable energy btw. Some people seem to think we can’t start with the energy transition before we’ve figured it all out, including storage for the winter and at night.
Let’s just build solar panels and wind mills and see how far we can go with that :D much more productive that way.
Unless someone is a on a serious carnivore diet, then we probably eat “vegan” more than we realize.
I had an English muffin with some homemade wild raspberry jam and a banana with my tea this morning. I have already planned an Indian lentil curry and rice for supper tonight. I don’t know what I’m having for dinner today, but I could have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich I suppose.
A whole day without meat. Not that I actually considered doing that because “vegan.” But because that’s what sounds good to eat today. Tomorrow, maybe some smoked oyster stuffed venison loin chops for supper perhaps or some eggs and bacon for breakfast.
Btw the author is the maker of elementaryOS
I knew a guy who did this for a time. Ate only vegetarian, but fried bacon to every single meal, then crushed it and sprinkled the bacon on as salt.
He did that until he got a job as a chef, then he said it got too hard not to eat any of the delicious food he was preparing at work.
Gatekeepers are the fucking worst. Every time I start reading up on something there’s always a handful of miserable condescending shitheads being nasty to people because they’re 'not ‘doing it right.’
Most vegan threads I come across usually has some of these, insulting anyone that’s not 100% on board even if they’re trying to get into it. Audiophiles are pretty much on the same level as hardcore vegans when it comes to being obnoxious (recently saw someone ask why the op was bothering setting up a music system if they didn’t have thousands of dollars to spare, for example). Linux users on support threads is a coin flip of whether they’ll be helpful or insulting.
Let people ease into things, stop demanding perfection right out of the gates!
An issue with boycotts in general is that people are constantly talking about what not to do and not what to do alternatively or the specifics on how to get there. Eventually it makes you realize that literally anything you do will cause someone to get genocided or abused somewhere, and when they way out isn’t clear or straightforward, now you’re overwhelmed with thousands of things you hate that you do and have to figure out how to change on your own one by one, and those changes result in new problems that overwhelm you or turn out to also be unethical and you have to change them yet again. And in the end you hate yourself because your change attempts made you miserable while you’re still doing doing harmful things and other people hate you because you’re still causing genocides and the rest think you’re an idiot or a hypocrite for trying at all, while meanwhile everyone else around you is just enjoying themselves and not giving a fuck, and you’ll always be a terrible person anyways so you might as well give up.
I think if more people instead of saying “don’t do this” instead said “do this instead” when they talked about what to boycott and why, that would help with harm reduction a lot more.
Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly
But never announce it on social media. The purists will fight you.
Vegans have the worst PR department ever
I’ve never encountered a group I mostly agree with that I want to avoid more
I think this can be said about a lot of the groups focused on some ethical viewpoint. They come out with a lot of rage, which might be justified for their viewpoint but does more to generate opposition than support. One of those “you might be right but you’re still an asshole” situations even for those who agree with them, but the type that provokes “you don’t like that I do this, eh? Well I’m going to do it even more because I don’t like you and I want to upset you” kind of responses in those who don’t agree.
I’ve been a strict Vegan for over a decade now and even i tend to stay away from the crowd. It’s a bit better offline, but depends on how much any person needs to boost their ego by signaling moral pureness.
I’m a bacontarian like in the image, but I love sharing recipes with all folks. This works even for the hardcore vegans.
Baconarian?
The word you are looking for is Murderer, obviously 😉
But honestly, cutting out animal products helps animals, so thanks for that. Should it be all animal products? I’d say yes and live accordingly, but i can accept that other people arrive at other points.
cutting out animal products helps animals
no, it doesn’t.
no, it doesn’t.
this is stated without any supporting evidence, and can be dismissed without any evidence.
The word you are looking for is Murderer, obviously
And yes, I know. I try to only eat suicidal animals, because I’m a good human!
My initial goal with switching more and more things to vegan was to reduce my ecological footprint.
For the animal products I still consume, I try to buy the fairest and highest quality available. If I’m responsible for their end, the life they had should at least be somewhat pleasant. But I guess they would prefer not to be eaten at all.
I’m just, in this moment, testing a new oat milk, and thus far I like it. It’s a worthy contender against Oatly Barista
I don’t know your options, but my work uses milk lab for speciality milks and the oat milk is good in my opinion. Well, good in coffee. I don’t know how that translates to other uses.
I’m in Germany and the options are, well, not limited, but the quality varies a lot. Currently I’m testing a band from Lidl, because I was too late to drop into Aldi yesterday.
I’m in the exact same boat - I’m grateful that the person who introduced me to it never forced it on me, they obviously would cook vegan meals for both of us when I’d visit his house but that was pretty much the only exposure they gave me.
When I started looking more into it and taking it on, they were obviously very supportive and I intend to do just that in my own life - people know I’m vegan eventually just from seeing the meals I eat and eventually asking, but I don’t mention it otherwise.
If there’s one group I hate serving more as a waiter, it’s vegans
Every other dietary will put in their booking their dietary in order to allow the chefs time to prepare them something pre service (we usually run a chef’s choice menu, set items)
Even FODMAP, arguably one of the most confusing dietaries, isn’t this bad at it. But vegans will almost always show up unannounced and expect to be fed when the only item on the menu that’s normally vegan is the bloody bread
If it’s bloody, the bread probably isn’t vegan either.
Doctor Who fans circa 15 years ago. I enjoyed the show for a while after the reboot. They were insufferable and I stopped watching at some point.
You know, that’s what they act like come to think of it. A toxic fandom. They’ve got something good that I occasionally enjoy. But I’m not as into as they are so I’m not welcome. And that’s fine. With Doctor Who I just stopped. With veganism I’ll make myself some cool ass meals and never share the recipes.
The purists will hate you, and those that hate the purists will also hate you.
I’m a purist but I appreciate everyone doing their best. Everyone has different challenges and priorities and in the end a bacontarian is much better than eating meat all the time, according to me at least.
For me, I’d love to see the monoculture farms go away. Reduced meat eating would go a long way to that end.
It doesn’t require completely abstaining but even a 10% reduction in the need for feed and other processed items would free up land that could be used in more sustainable ways.
To that end, I’m also a fan of alternative farming methods such as vertical farms and promoting even small balcony boxes that may only produce pretty flowers or herbs.
Every variety of greenery in as many places as possible would combat the poison we’ve pumped into the world over the past few centuries.
I’m a purist
You are accepting that others aren’t and thus okay with harm reduction stances (“lesser evil is better than greater evil”), so you are not a moral purist at least, if that makes any sense. For a true moral purist evil is unacceptable so they will refuse making that choice, even if that leads to a worse outcome
Veganism is by it’s very definition harm reduction. There’s a large difference between “cannot eat less meat” and “don’t want to eat less meat”. The first is technically even vegan, the second will never be.
Applying strict moral purism to veganism means leaving most of harm reduction out, though, it’s the paradox that happens when moral purism meets lesser-evilism. If the options are getting lots of people to eat less meat by understanding changing cultural norms takes a lot of time and will happen slowly and thus encouraging them to take at least smaller steps towards leaving animal products out (more animals saved = lesser evil), or demanding everyone immediately stops eating meat and becomes vegan, which fails to consider people grown in a meat eating culture will fight aggressively against sudden changes and thus makes people less likely to listen and reduce their meat consumption (more animals eaten = greater evil), a moral purist vegan will choose the latter or do neither (leading to animals still being eaten more than with the first option - so not a harm reduction stance).
As moral purists views it is completely unacceptable to eat animals, encouraging people to eat just a little animals is not an option. If you can accept the lesser evil, you are not a moral purist, and if you don’t accept the lesser evil then you’re choosing against harm reduction
Ah, I guess I’m more of a dietary purist.
vegans as well as linux users are nowhere near as outspoken and petty as they are made out to be. personally i find jokes about that insufferable and ubiquitous. The ratio of jokes about this to actually people like this existing is like 100:1. my theory is, They get so much shit because them just existing reminds people of their own shortcommings, instead of applauding people doing the effort to pioneer a better world these people decide to make a snarky remark and continue being lazy and annoying with these jokes.
I know quite a few vegans in my life who are amazing, nonjudgmental people. On Lemmy, I’ve been called a “murderer” and a “carnist” for mentioning I’m reducing my meat consumption.
Lemmy has plenty of mentally unwell people, who feel identifying strongly with some or another cause gives their life meaning.
Yup. I posted the canadian food “plate” in one of the vegan communties as a sanier counterexample to the new US inverted meat pyramid. Canada fought its Ag industry tooth and nail to publish it. The pretty reasonable “protein” section is largly beans, nuts, fish and then red meat, in a way that mirrors actual health recommendations instead of industry demands.
I specifically called it a better version that recommended eating less meat. Immediatly hit with “all meat is murder” and had my comment deleted within the hour.
It doesnt change my personal views on veganism, but it did tell me not to interact with the community here, which is unfortunate. Id like to get more input and perspectives, and hell even recipe recommendations, but nah.
You went to a vegan community and posted propaganda advocating consumption of animals and you’re surprised at the response?
I went to a vegan community, agreeded that the US “EAT ALL THE RED MEAT” food guideline was asinine, then offered a “eat much less meat” option with an explicit statement that “it isnt ideal from a vegan perspective, but better.”
Yes, I was surprised by the poor response. I’m offering support for reducing meat consumption, and was met by “good is not perfect so fuck you” zealotry. Its fine if they dont want non vegans to interact and learn more about veganism, but it would have been better to put that on the sidebar so those of us “interested, but not converted” stay out.
Doesn’t carnist just mean someone who eats meat?
no. it’s a term made up by vegans to describe people who don’t have their ideology. just like how Christians talk about sinners
Yeah, most terms are made up. In this case the alternative is “non-vegan non-vegetarian” so I think making up a shorter term is worthwhile lol
What was wrong with “omnivore”?
all terms are made up. this one in particular was made up by vegans to identify non-believers.
It does. It’s just a word for people who follow the belief that it’s normal, natural, and necessary to consume animals.
Since those people are the invisible majority, it’s often taken as an insult to have their ‘normal’ status get a label. Veganism is the belief that we shouldn’t exploit and harm animals, carnism is the belief that we should.
Which is hilarious in hindsight, because the reverse happens in other topics. Call someone in other circles ‘normal’ and they’ll throw 15 label names at you for why they’re not normal.
Carnism would still technically cover “vegan plus (animal-based) bacon”. That’s kinda like saying you’re an atheist but believe in (insert god here).
Carnism would still technically cover “vegan plus (animal-based) bacon”
And this all-or-nothing approach is precisely what I’m referring to. I consider myself pretty well-read, and the only time I’ve ever seen the word “carnist” used in the wild is when someone who’s vegan is hurling it as an insult
It’s not all or nothing, it’s definitional! Why even have words describing concepts if everyone makes up their own version just to get mad at it.
Veganism is based on anti-speciesism, the philosophical belief that discrimination based solely (SOLELY) on species is immoral. It makes perfect sense, then, to find a word that describes the opposite stance. Carnism is that word.
This is, quite frankly, just as ridiculous as TERFs getting pissed at being called “cis”. Or “TERF”, for that matter. It’s entirely reasonable that someone might not like people holding opposing philosophical views (TERFs, carnists), but that does NOT make those words insults in and of themselves.
All this is ENTIRELY divorced from whether reducing meat consumption is good (it is!).
Sorry to break it to you, but if you believe that the Christian god exists yet don’t think there was ever a guy named Jesus that rose from the dead after 3 days, you’re still a theist even if you call it atheist.
And if you think it’s acceptable to kill pigs because you like their cooked bodies, you’re still practicing carnism even if you call it veganism.
“I’m reducing my meat consumption by doing (x).”
“Fuck off, carnist!”
It really isn’t being used that way when the intention is flagrantly insultive.
please go ahead and share the discussion with us
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Vegan, is in fact, bacon/Vegan, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, bacon plus Vegan. Vegan is not an diet unto itself, but rather another component of a fully functioning diet system made useful by the bacon, grease and vitals destroying components comprising a full obesity as defined by WHO.
I see what you did there…
I speak from personal experience. I once tried talking about reducing meat consumption and got attacked. Never again.
I got banned from a vegan community for calling someone out for equating meat consumption with domestic violence.
You think violence and violence aren’t comparable?
Comparing eating meat with domestic violence is a laughable comparison and disingenuous at best. It’s attitudes like that that make the average person unable to take vegans seriously.
most people are chill, but there are people who act like if you aren’t a vegan or a linux user, you are an evil and morally compromised person
which is understandable coming from vegans, imo. bad tactic and all but yeah, animal consumption is pretty messed up.
coming from linux evangelists it’s fucking laughable
All the linux “evangelists” I’ve seen online just shitpost with inside jokes, or talk about the benefits of FOSS, or explain what makes google and microsoft such evil companies, or post genuinely helpful content about software alternatives or advice for making the switch.
I’ve never seen a rabid linux user. On the other hand, some vegans get so rabid that they actually chase people away from their cause. You’re never going to get people to change a core aspect of their lives such as eating habits by insulting them and going on a tirade about why they’re evil.
For what it’s worth, I’ve spent years as a vegetarian, and it took me years before that to gradually reduce my meat consumption to zero. I tried going vegan a few times but I would get grumpy, lethargic, and start craving things like cheese and eggs.
There is no room in vegan spaces online to talk about the process of reducing consumption or the struggle associated with it. That’s pretty detrimental to the goal of a 100% meat-free society.
The only way we’ll ever eliminate factory farming is through slow-incremental change. But the average vegan will never accept that. They’re a classic example of “letting perfection be the enemy of progress.”
A “rabid” vegan turned me vegan. There was some thread on reddit about dogs or animals. It’s Reddit, so obviously crazy claims and discussions happened. One was a typical 30 comment deep discussion with a vegan. I thought he was a dickhead, like all vegans, injecting his preaching anywhere he could, like all vegans.
That’s why I started researching veganism. I wanted to prove to him that he was obviously wrong. Jokes on me though, because he was right. Roughly 4 months later, I was vegan.
I think non-vegans MASSIVELY underestimate the bubble they live in. What kind of vegan will ever reach the average persons feed or frontpage? It’s not the calm, nicely argued one. Just like with the “angry, yelling, colored hair feminazi”, the only vegans reaching most people are the most aggressive, most divisive vegans. That says absolutely nothing about vegans in generally, but everything about how filter bubbles work.
I can’t see into what your experience has been, but I can give my own 2 cents: 99% of the time people say vegans are aggressive or uncompromising, the non-vegans are just wrong. Secondly, I’ve had many a horrible experience with feminists (and anti-racists etc.) online. Yet, none of that kept me from doing genuine research and becoming “woke”, and I most definitely didn’t use the terminally online versions of a movement as a indictment of the validity of the movement.
idk the amount of times I’ve tried to explain my wife and kid’s dietary restrictions that mean veganism is basically impossible for us in other places I get a lot of hate.
The kids are autistic and have major taste and texture aversions, which maybe we could work around with the right things. My wife though had a malabsorptive bariatric surgery that means she needs to eat Low carb, High protein, and most importantly Low volume meals. When you need like 1.5 cups of beans to get the same protein as like 3oz of ground beef and only have a 6 ounce stomach volume you kinda have to go with the one that gives you the most protein for the least volume.
I could imagine vegans being upset if you weren’t vegan solely because your wife and kids can’t be (like they are a shield or something, idk). Modern veganism should be about harm reduction. I know someone mentioned beans but I think seitan has more protein per punch (has more than steak according to a random google, *forgot about the carb limit tho, it looks like it wouldn’t go over too much but depends on the source). I don’t have much experience with your family’s conditions. I need a bunch of fiber or else I get severely constipated, I was shocked at how little your wife gets. Sorry you got hate for your wife and kids. It sounds like your wife was (is?) in a bad spot, I hope her recovery gets better.
*edit
The only problem with that is we live on a fixed budget as I don’t work since they all need varying degrees of care around the clock. We live entirely off my wife’s disability and whatever assistance programs we qualify for. I have neither the time, the energy, nor the money to prepare meals for myself entirely separate from their dietary restrictions.
Each kid eats maybe a dozen things themselves, 20 for the oldest, and there’s maybe 6 that overlap between them. By the time I’ve figured out what they’re willing to eat and made it I almost zero desire to even look at food let alone prepare an entirely separate vegan meal with all of that no money I have to purchase vegan ingredients that again likely nobody but me would be able to eat.
(Edit: I should add I’m not completely against the idea of changing my own diet. It’s just that by the time I’m feeding myself I’m so done with the whole thing that my “diet” is whatever I can easily shove in my food hole without fussing too much about it)
That sounds really rough, sorry you are going through this. I am also on disability and welfare and have a caregiver partner (so my benefits meant for 1 person have to be stretched for 2), but I do not have children (let alone disabled children). I’m guessing your wife isn’t able to eat the seitan after all? That sucks. Seitan is chewier than tofu or tempeh but you know your kids the best. I hope you hang in there. You are doing your best and it is appreciated. I’ve read about caregiver burnout before, the suffering the people around us go through is awful. Fuck the system we live in.
I’m not sure we’ve never actually found seitan around to try it. Wholeheartedly agree about the caregiver burnout and the way the system works though. So much “invisible” care work it just expected to be done for free with zero support it’s crazy.
The wildest part about that to me was that Medicare would pay me to care for her… if we weren’t married. But because we are I’m ineligible for that.
Omg yeah, the system does not want disabled people married!!! Once a disabled person marries, their disability income gets cut and chore services gets cut. What a load of bs, both partners need to have an income in this stupid economy just to be able to live and a partner will absolutely burnout without support. It’s the main reason I can’t marry. If I marry, I essentially lose all of my benefits (also how is a limit of $3k in total assets for a married couple fair?!). Disabled people are penalized for having any type of savings or assets like life insurance ffs. Even with chore services, insurance will makeup excuses like some hypothetical person is providing free support and thus they don’t give as many hours. Getting paid is a mess because of the EVV crap to “prevent fraud” aka just more spyware embedded in your phone. I’ve actually heard of people getting legal divorces just to get around this crap. Also people like me who can’t get married but are terrified of being found to be “holding out” on marriage which can cause benefits to be cut completely. I’ve read articles on people having children out of wedlock (not that there is anything wrong with that) simply because of the disability welfare system. IT SUCKS.
well, akschually, assuming all that is true, at least your wife and kids are vegan, or could be. In the end, veganism is about doing what is “possible and practicable”.
That being said, have you checked out TVP or seitan? They can roughly match protein content of most meat.
Finally, if you generally believe in the idea behind veganism, every little bit helps. Strangers on the internet can’t really see though what exactly you could do. If you do what you can, that’s already enough.
I haven’t actually heard of TVP, I’ve heard of seitan though I’ve never had the chance to try it. But yeah that’s the big problem, most of the plant based proteins that I’m aware of are either very high carb or you need a large volume of them to get that protein content. Both of which don’t work with her restrictions.
I don’t have particularly high hopes for seitan given what I’ve heard about it as far as like the texture aversions in the house go. She’s in the spectrum too and most likely where there kids get it from. She actually got kind of informally diagnosed through them being diagnosed before her health started really going downhill. But I’m willing to give anything a shot, especially if there’s a chance to make the food budget stretch a bit more with all these dietary restrictions in the house with our limited income. I’ll be on the lookout for them.
So I mean this from a place of curiosity not trying to get you all to change anything, I’m not even vegetarian. Is there a particular reason your wife couldn’t do several smaller meals over the day? Like do their organs not allow something like that anymore or more like it would be ridiculous to carry around a bag of beans to snack on over the course of 4 hours?
I’m going to preface this by saying that I’m going to be adding some addendums/emphasis and providing some additional context for some things about her condition in here. I do not mean any of this to say that I believe that you personally are or plan on discounting her condition. It is meant only for emphasis because the particular bariatric surgery she had, the Duodenal Switch is significantly more involved than most other surgeries. A lot of people end up having to have the surgery partially reversed because they can’t keep up with the vitamin supplementation and end up hospitalized and dying of malnutrition.
The malabsorption means that she already has to have many small meals through the day. Then each of those meals needs to hit certain macros while being under that volume.
So like to give an example. She needs at least 200g of protein in a day while staying as far under 50g of carbs as possible (fiber included) to not be utterly miserable. That’s not “the doctor told me to get this much” they told her to go for 150g. That’s the levels she’s found over the years result in her not being in significant gastrointestinal distress and actually having decent energy levels along with the roughly 50 vitamin supplements she HAS TO TAKE TO NOT DIE OF MALNUTRITION because and I cannot stress this enough the malabsorption means she CANNOT properly absorb most of these vitamins from food. They need to be very specific formulations at specific times of day to keep her levels up. Like 125,000IU+ PER DAY of Vitamin A (This is WILL KILL YOU levels for a normal person BTW) to still be partially night blind from deficiency (yes she has seen a doctor about it to make sure it’s nothing else)
That 1.5 cups of black beans is around 22.5g of protein and 60g of carbs. So that’s 2 entire “meals” of nothing but beans to have a little over 1/10th of the protein she needs in a day and 20% over the entire day’s limit for carbs.
One might think “Why get this surgery then?” if it’s like this. Which is a fair question. For my wife in particular she had a condition called pseudotumor cerebri where she was producing too much cerebrospinal fluid and not getting rid of it fast enough so it was compressing her brain and optic nerve much like a brain tumor (hence why it is called pseudo tumor). She was significantly overweight at the time and had this issue before. It resolved temporarily when she lost weight but due to heavy food insecurity and other trauma when she was younger she struggled to keep the weight off. So she had 2 options: Aggressive weight loss from bariatric surgery, or getting a shunt implanted in her skull to drain the fluid. She chose the bariatric surgery that gave her the best chance of not still needing the shunt, which was the DS. Since having severe OCD she knew for a fact she could keep up with the vitamin supplementation and use managing the vitamins as an adaptive outlet for the OCD.
Why specific formulations and times for vitamins? A couple reasons, one is ease of absorption. Certain formulations have to be basically digested a little first to get properly absorbed which because of the surgery her body just doesn’t properly do. This is basically why she needs the supplements to begin with. Since her body only properly digests part of what she eats she doesn’t actually absorb a bunch of the nutrients from it and needs to supplement the vitamins her body can’t absorb well from food. The second is that certain vitamins interfere with the absorption of others, calcium inhibiting iron absorption for example.
They are two very different things to discuss. First, eating is vital, computing with computers is not. People eat to survive and 44% of the people in the world live in poverty, so they probably don’t get to choose what to eat to survive. This statistic takes China into account, outside of China, the fight against poverty is way more ineffective, to put it mildly. The USA has been okay with an increasing amount of poor people, in the range of 10-15% by more than half a century. There are countries with >80% of people living in poverty in Africa.
But even if you can choose, my opinion is that achieving a balanced diet is the goal, not being a vegan.
I support small changes for self improvement. Buying pints instead of fiths is a start.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
And the enemy of progress. If everyone arrived for “good enough” we’d get further than people who refuse to try for fear of not achieving perfection. And this is problem comes not only from that person, but from the external pressure to be perfect. Fuck that shit. My old man used to get on me as a kid, “You only want to be good enough?” Yeah, that’s fine. I get everything done that I need to, and I can go be good enough at some other shit too, and I think I make the world around me better with all of my good enough shit.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Dont get caught up in labels. If you want to vegetarian but don’t want to give up bacon just do it. Doesn’t matter what you label it it’s just a diet.
